Saaya Irie on Cover of Weekly Playboy
Okay, let me just come out and say it: lately I have been totally wrong on this “junior idol” boom. (For those that just tuned in, the “junior idol” thing is a new Japanese sub-market of the semi-porn industry that puts girls aged 9-17 in very revealing bikinis.) A week or so ago, I wasted everyone’s time whining about a 17 year-old bikini model advertised as “she may be a high school student, but she’s an adult E-cup!” I tried to parry off “cultural relativist” attacks and “the UK is worse” blows, but all of my huffing and puffing was in vain.
I clearly should have saved my outrage: this week, 14 year-old Saaya Irie is on the cover of Weekly Playboy. “She may be a middle-school student, but she’s an adult F-cup.” The text doesn’t say this, but who needs to say anything! This is a 14 year-old girl in a bikini on the cover of a magazine featuring lots of naked women and articles praising prostitution. This is so blatantly wrong that I don’t even need to feign sarcastic contempt. Wait, too late.
Saaya has found support from Weekly Playboy since she was about 12, but this may be her first cover. Nothing like a 14 year-old girl to catch some eyeballs. I mean, why not use her? She’s finally hit 14! Back when I went to middle school, a lot of the girls in my class were being invited to pose in skimpy bikinis for nationally-syndicated men’s magazines from mainstream publishers. You too, right?
Okay, enough crying wolf for today. Feel free to tear apart my insanely puritan outlook in the comments section.
September 29, 2008 at 11:46 pm
Puritanism loves company; the first time I saw one of those magazines in my laundromat, I was almost sorry that I was alone, so strong was my urge to hurl the thing at the first male I saw. Just … no. No.
… no.
September 30, 2008 at 1:47 am
I didn’t read all the comments in the last post, but I guess there’s a basic question. What part of this do you find to be wrong? The part where men are ephebophilic, or the part where parents are willing to expose a young child to that ephebophilia?
Also, when I was 14 the girls were not paid to dress like sluts. They did it willingly. I don’t find the parents in either case to be any better.
September 30, 2008 at 7:13 am
I think there’s quite a difference between 14-year-old girls who dress inappropriately to impress their friends (or to feel like grown-ups, or for any similar reason) and 14-year-old girls who dress inappropriately and are paid for it: that’s not just sanction from their parents but sanction from society on a wider scale.
For me, at least, the problem is not ‘men are ephebophilic’ or even quite ‘parents are willing to make their children the objects of ephebophilia’ – the problem is that featuring 14-year-old girls in skin mags is an encouragement to men to be ephebophilic, which I don’t think they would necessarily be. I’ve heard a lot of ‘oyaji no kokoro’ nonsense, the idea that ‘gee, older men are just like that! they have dirty thoughts about young girls! it can’t be helped!’ and I really don’t think it’s true. So long as overdeveloped underage girls are considered valid objects of lust they’ll be objects of lust. If there were a general social sense that lusting after teenage girls is weird and perverted, it would be so.
September 30, 2008 at 7:37 am
I find it strange first and foremost that you need 14 year old girls to SELL a magazine of adult sexuality. You’d think that 18 or 19 year-olds would suffice.
September 30, 2008 at 9:32 am
Take that, You perverse titillation and biological response to boobies, You!
September 30, 2008 at 9:45 am
You’d think that 18 or 19 year-olds would suffice.
Exactly. As the father of a 5 year-old daughter I don’t see anything remotely “puritanical” in objecting to young girls being portrayed in a sexual context.
It may turn out that I have a difficult time objecting to the fashion tastes of my daughter in the future. I would, however, have no problem exercising my veto over her appearing in one of these magazines. I have to seriously wonder about the parents of these girls.
September 30, 2008 at 9:59 am
Take that, You perverse titillation and biological response to boobies, You!
If biology is our standard, we should just have her appear naked, no?
September 30, 2008 at 12:17 pm
But you won`t get a tearing apart this time because your post is about something that the majority of us find objectionable, and not about why you think that it defines “the Japanese male” in some way.
September 30, 2008 at 12:25 pm
We shouldn’t draw any conclusions about customers from this?
What I think you can say is the only media counterpunch against the junior idol thing is that Brutus issue a while back that basically had the message, real men like adult women.
Okay so yeah blood is not on the hands of all Japanese men but you can say that certain men of a political passion (right-wing) and education level are probably more excited about 14 year-old boobs than others. I don’t see saaya iris being on the cover of studio voice or even Smart Girls.
September 30, 2008 at 12:29 pm
There is also something weird about the fact that saaya is basically only well-known in adult entertainment context. She more popular with 34 yearold guys than 14 yearold girls. She makes no legitimate pop products like songs, just bikini pics.
September 30, 2008 at 12:52 pm
“Okay so yeah blood is not on the hands of all Japanese men but you can say that certain men of a political passion (right-wing) and education level are probably more excited about 14 year-old boobs than others.”
Yes, and specifics are always nice. Weekly Playboy readers are largely a bunch of dirtbags.
“What I think you can say is the only media counterpunch”
If you want a counterpunch dropped, shouldn`t this post be in Japanese? It would be absolutely fascinating if it were to be presented with a “this embarrasses Japan internationally” slant. Would more people agree? Resort to culturalist defences?
September 30, 2008 at 1:04 pm
This doesn’t embarrass Japan since I am apparently the only human being to have noticed and I posted something on a meta-post staff blog.
September 30, 2008 at 1:05 pm
Weekly Playboy readers are largely a bunch of dirtbags.
Right, but I don’t think they are particularly marginal dirtbags.
September 30, 2008 at 1:37 pm
“This doesn’t embarrass Japan since I am apparently the only human being to have noticed and I posted something on a meta-post staff blog.”
Yes, but isn`t there a common understanding, to go along with how cool Japan is, that older Japanese guys are a bunch of pervs?
September 30, 2008 at 1:49 pm
See, I think that’s too simple to say “older Japanese guys are pervs.”
First of all, Weekly Playboy is not a magazine for “older men.” The average age is around 35, with probably 85-90% of readers under 45. So we are not talking about some kind of leftover, outdated customs that see 14 year-olds as prime fare for nudie mags.
In fact, I would say that Weekly Playboy knows full well that they are being “shocking” by introducing such a thing.
From that, I think you can also argue that there is something about 14 year-old girls RIGHT NOW that appeals to lower to middle middle-class Japanese men under 45. Or at least, Weekly Playboy thinks that they would be interested. Putting her on the cover means that 14 year-old girls are a way to get men to look at the naked pics and dirty comics inside… not the other way around.
The other issue on this is how much it shows the passivity of the population. If you canvass Japanese people you know, no one will tell you that Saaya Irie’s 12 year-old or 14 year-old bikini shots are a particularly great thing. (You know, if the “morals” in Japan universally accepted young teenage boobage, wouldn’t everyone basically wonder why you were even asking? I mean, as an American, if someone said, “How dare you hold hands in public!” I can’t imagine even feigning agreement. I would probably stand up for it.) But there is basically no recourse for groups in opposition to do much. They have no voice. The PTA is probably not into this, but they have been crushed into total marginality. And of course, there is little internal debate within these magazines about such things, because politics and arguments and ethics are bad for business.
So yes, Japanese “morals” are different, but how much of that is a distribution of voice and power in society? Can we say that the “morals” of dominant male segments are more important than the “morals” of other less important groups?
September 30, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Wow, that comment was much better than the original post. Just two things for now – I use “older” to mean 35-45; and if Nikkyoso still has the brass to topple a cabinet minister (and hurt the PM), I think that someone could do something about this if they felt the urgent need. More later.
September 30, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Yeah, I am not 100% convinced of my original “they don’t have the power” but I think the idea of “policing men’s magazines” is not something that women’s groups think is a particularly profitable exercise. Maybe this actually has to do with a bored tolerance of what the other sex is doing. Same way that there are no single women in Yoshinoya and no single men in Mister Donuts or Baskin Robbins.
September 30, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Weekly Playboy is a mainstream magazine and Saaya is a mainstream media phenomenon, so it is hard to say that you can’t generalize this to an indictment of the attitudes of a significant portion of population.
I don’t think this at all mitigates it, but it is interesting that the featured “gurabia” in that same issue of Playboy – yes I did click on the link – is of the almost 40-year-old Nagasaku Hiromi. So it seems like they were anticipating the storm this would cause, and in their own way were trying to deflect it. Of course, (1) there is no “senior idol” phenomenon in Japan outside of maybe Nagasaku and Kuroki Hitomi and (2) even if there were, this would not make the exploitation of a minor “OK”. But it does seem to indicate the publishers believe there is a large portion of the Japanese population (not of a certain political viewpoint and not frequenting certain BBSs?) that would be find the cover quite objectionable.
September 30, 2008 at 8:08 pm
I think the issue is models UNDER (U-18) a legal standard, not within an IDEAL range (18-35).
Shueisha probably just thinks that no one outside of their target segment will notice she is 14 if they don’t mention it.
September 30, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Honestly marxy can you just stop fucking whining about Japan’s obsession with pre-pubescent girls? It’s not like it’s anything we haven’t seen in Japan for the last 20 years, and neither is your input. Complaining about younger girls being dolled up to look sexy just makes you seem like a closet pedophile.
September 30, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Finally, I hit a nerve.
It’s not like it’s anything we haven’t seen in Japan for the last 20 years
More concrete examples, please.
September 30, 2008 at 10:03 pm
I think I saw a banner ad for this magazine on the subway. Could this be possible?
I would like to say thanks to you David for bringing light to this. (at least for me)
I would think no matter how contrarian or postmodern you are, this issue is pretty cut and dry. Its creepy and just wrong.
Im pretty new here and so my question is this:
Is there any voice of protest coming from native Japanese people?
Surely this cannot only be an issue to Westerners?
I’m not being facetious, I am asking this honestly.
-James B.
September 30, 2008 at 11:27 pm
“the problem is that featuring 14-year-old girls in skin mags is an encouragement to men to be ephebophilic, which I don’t think they would necessarily be”
I can’t agree with that logic. Men are ephebophilic in their biological nature, as shocking as that may be. It is biology that dictates that men will be attracted to the opposite sex when they attain childbearing age. I don’t think it’s necessarily something to be ashamed of, but at the same time it should be tempered with the faculties we have to understand the psychology of adolescents and reserve from acting on the impulses. It’s part of being human. The fact that she has a fuller bosom and better body than most of the fully adult women I’ve personally dated almost makes you question whether it’s an issue of ephebophilia at all however…
Now, I also think you’re absolutely right. Fourteen year olds should not be used to sell magazines of adult sexuality. As I said before we have the minds and intellectual capability to act with reserve, and we should do so especially when the psychological state of others is at risk. I asked the question because I was curious if you were implying that men in general should be ashamed of their biological impulses, or if they should be ashamed of how they act on them. I can see that it is the latter, now.
October 1, 2008 at 1:34 am
not to be all momus on this. but, if it’s happening, and most people (over half) seem to be OK with it. isn’t the point of having your country, is to have your own laws and morals? who’s to say who’s morals apply to whom? using 14 year olds to sell porn rags isn’t what i would personally call kosher. but some people might. seems like your just applying “american” morals onto japan. dunno. seems a pointless argument.
…disclaimer.. i didn’t read every comment. im lazy like that.
October 1, 2008 at 3:18 am
trevor, I think you’re very right. I don’t pretend to know the set of morals of every country in the world, but just because mine differ doesn’t mean I can force my morality on them. I’m not sure if that’s the case here, but you’re right.
October 1, 2008 at 6:15 am
The ol’ question of morality being relative to culture….
Well I respectfully disagree with you Trevor.
I believe certain parts of morality are not subjective. (I said certain)
Through evolution we have developed certain principles that I believe apply to the entire society of man. Some of these would include murder, slavery, racism, stealing as well as the abuse and blatant sexualization of children.
(I guess we are treading in normative ethics territory here)
Trevor said “if it’s happening, and most people (over half) seem to be OK with it. ”
You seem to be forgetting the child in this case. Is the child OK with it? Is a child (defined by age) able to make these decisions that will affect the rest of her/his life?
I believe that putting a child in this situation can be considered child abuse.
Trevor, if over half the population of a country is “OK” with racism would it be something worth taking a stand against?
Or as you put it would it be a “pointless argument”?
And for child labor?
Interested in what you think,
-James B.
October 1, 2008 at 10:51 am
i’m going to disrespectively disagree.. based almost entirely on the fact that you are not a 13-16 year old japanese girl (who grew up in japan). i could care less about your opinion on this subject. (and last i check, it sure seems morals are subjective.. just based on this shit i see here in the USA) i just wanted to point out that. just cause you (as in anyone) think it’s wrong. doesn’t mean it is. a group needs to decide what is right and wrong, and then enforce, or not enforce those policies. (i call this a government) i don’t agree with it. (14 year old on skin rag thing) its quiet distastefully.. as i said. not kosher in my book. it’s not kosher.. as in. its not good. but unless someone can prove she is being forced against her will into the shoots. i’m not going to be the one to judge her, nor the society. its her call, her parents call, the rags call, and then japan’s call at the end. sadly for you. it’s not your call.
October 1, 2008 at 11:00 am
Men are ephebophilic in their biological nature
Are all men equally ephebophilic? Aren’t some men moreso because they feel threatened and emasculated by women their own age? Is Akihabara not the center for both moe (a fictionalized ephebophilia) and low-teen idol stores? I would argue that this Japanese low-teen idol ephebophilia seems to correlate with other factors such as social class, education, occupation, and political beliefs.
To a light degree it may be biological, but if this ephebophilia is increasing due to the rising position of women in society, that seems to be a (non-moral) social dysfunction. Last time I checked there are laws in place to keep minors and adults separated sexually.
Pushing morality on people
Before we act like debating 14 year-old bikini models on the cover of adult magazines is a crime in itself, let us consider the idea that Japanese men have pushed their morality on Japanese women for centuries now. The same people who hate the idea of a “Christian Right” legislating morality in their own countries are the first to act like foreign countries do not have this same internal debate and somehow act as monolithic units.
But I don’t think this has to do with sexual morality. The Japanese legal system has already decided those matters, no? The question is one basically of child labor, and what it says about Japanese society that the low-teen idol boom is becoming more mainstream. Unless someone can find me a Saaya Irie from the 1970s or 1980s, I think it’s fair to say this is a somewhat recent development — at least in the world of live flesh rather than animation etc.
October 1, 2008 at 11:00 am
oh! i realized i had not idea of the age of consent in japan.. do you? guess really quick. then read this..
http://tinyurl.com/o4hnj
October 1, 2008 at 11:02 am
As far as I know, the age of adult consent was raised to 18 during the late 1990s in response to the enjo kosai boom. For some reason, “the Japanese” weren’t that excited about young girls prostituting themselves out to adult men.
October 1, 2008 at 11:14 am
The whole age of consent thing is a red herring anyway since we are not talking about whether Saaya Irie should have individually and privately have sex with men or not. We are asking whether a media company should use an underage bikini idol as a way to sell a magazine otherwise full of adult sexuality. And what that need to lower the age of models says about the customer base.
October 1, 2008 at 11:43 am
the media is going to do whatever it can do to sell copies. if it works. it works. TMZ anyone? is anyone here part of a group that is trying to actually do anything? otherwise this is just a bunch of (mostly) gaijin talking out of our collective ass’s. imo.
October 1, 2008 at 11:53 am
“Are all men equally ephebophilic? Aren’t some men moreso because they feel threatened and emasculated by women their own age? Is Akihabara not the center for both moe (a fictionalized ephebophilia) and low-teen idol stores? I would argue that this Japanese low-teen idol ephebophilia seems to correlate with other factors such as social class, education, occupation, and political beliefs.”
You’re more of an expert on that particular field than I am, but the counter argument can be raised that perhaps men really ARE just that ephebophilic, whether from nurture or nature. You could just as easily argue that Akiba is a center for ephebophilia as Los Angeles or Providence are for homosexuality. We can argue that it is class, education, occupation, what have you… the fact of the matter is that it is most likely also biological. Perhaps some people really are just that gay.
Societies will continuously push their ideologies on each other, back and forth, ceaselessly. It’s not a crime to have an ideology at all. But it’s also not, or should not be, a crime to follow who you are as a person either.
“I believe certain parts of morality are not subjective. (I said certain)
Through evolution we have developed certain principles that I believe apply to the entire society of man. Some of these would include murder, slavery, racism, stealing as well as the abuse and blatant sexualization of children.”
Through evolution? Perhaps the evolution of society? That’s probably what you meant. You believe these principles apply universally to mankind, so let’s just take it at that. But who is the arbiter that says abortion isn’t murder, that suicide isn’t morally wrong, that killing another in defense or yourself is not actually murder? Perhaps there is an underlying idea that may be universal, but that idea is open to interpretation. And some people will interpret abortion as murder, suicide as unforgivable. In some places having sex with a 16 year old is legal (as it is in my home state), in some it’s 14, and in some it’s 18. As little as fifty or sixty years ago being wed and bearing children before the age of 18 in the United States was a norm. To modern society teenage pregnancy is stigmatized completely, no matter the circumstance.
You can make a case of it relativistically until you’re out of breath. It’s not going to change how some cultures are, and how some cultures develop. Hell, look at the Sambia tribe. They led the most sexually deviant and screwed up society that I’ve ever heard of, and apparently everyone in the society was ok with it. In fact the young boys WE would view as sexually abused considered the practice to be a huge favor on their part. I’ll leave it to you all to read up on the culture if you’re not familiar with it.
But needless to say, morality is largely cultural, far more so than biological urges are cultural. Neither is completely seperate, to be sure, and members of a culture should strive to be GOOD members of their culture, without a doubt. But I don’t think it’s for anyone to judge another culture one way or another.
Does that apply here? Not necessarily, I suppose, as this may be considered deviant social behavior. But what happens when it becomes the norm, as it seems to be trending? Do we accept it, as society has largely accepted homosexuality, or do we continue to stigmatize it. I don’t have an answer, and frankly it’s pretty disturbing to think about.
October 1, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Yomiuri headline:
ISPs halt services offering pics of young girls
“Four major domestic Internet service providers have decided to stop providing fee-based services that allow customers to access Web sites featuring photographs of very young Japanese girls dressed in swimsuits and adopting sexually provocative poses, it has been learned. Initially, the ISPs were reluctant to halt their services, insisting the photographs did not constitute child pornography under current laws. However, under mounting criticism that they were commercializing the sexualization of children, one pulled its service Monday, with two others following suit Tuesday. The other has said it intends to withdraw its service in the near future”…
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20081001TDY02305.htm
October 1, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Mulboyne Said: “ISPs halt services offering pics of young girls”
see.. your ISP and government will protect. don’t worry.
anyways. here’s a question. do we think that Saaya is being mental harmed anymore then.. let just use me! then me being a dork in middle school, and getting jumped and beat up.. atleast she’s making money she can use to pay her shrink with later? and isn’t posing nude. but yeah. the rag is pretty full up slimmy for it. and her rep should get a “what the fuck” slap! but.. i dunno. there are no guest list for gigs in japan! thats a moral outrage if you ask me.
October 1, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Damn you, Japanese ISPs! How dare you foist your morality on the public!
October 1, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Wow, this has been taken way out of my hands. I`ll just say – I don`t think that you are a pedophile, Marxy. Your point about different spheres of consumption for men and women (now long forgotten, I see) is also a valuable one.
October 1, 2008 at 1:14 pm
“I don`t think that you are a pedophile, Marxy.”
Wow, thanks. I also don’t think that the guys on Daily Kos are closet Republicans.
October 1, 2008 at 1:23 pm
We need Aceface to come and drop a huge bomb on this thread.
October 1, 2008 at 1:28 pm
One piece of counter evidence would be that Nakayama Miho started her career as a young butt-flashing yankee tarento (see here: http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=lDk7b_MTRhY
), but I still think she was a more above-the-board “talent” in a major agency compared to Saaya, who only really does gravia. To think that Saaya Irie was already doing bikini shots at age 10 or 11 BEFORE anyone heard of her is pretty crazy.
Is there some sort of other gravia-only low-teen in Japan’s history I should know about?
October 1, 2008 at 4:18 pm
“Is there some sort of other gravia-only low-teen in Japan’s history I should know about?”
Not gravia-only, but famous actress Kuriyama Chiaki did a shashinshû that included nude shots at the age of 11, which is crazy. She went on to have a healthy career (Kill Bill etc.) but I’d like to hear her thoughts on having done/been made to do the book at that age. In the years since the end of that kind of material the boundaries have been pushed to what you’re seeing now in Weekly Playboy.
Marxy, I think it’s time you did a proper interview with these publishers. You’re qualified enough.
October 1, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Interesting clip on YOUTUBE, I am sure you all have seen it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLrO0am5j54
Trevor, I am sorry you feel the need to “disrespectfully” disagree with my opinion. I was only stating how I feel in the discussion and the points that were given.
You said “atleast she’s making money she can use to pay her shrink with later?” I assume this was facetious, but seeing the logic in your other comments maybe not?
( To set the record straight I don’t give a shit about you either. )
Now,
Ratiocinational – good points, and yes I did mean social evolution. BUT I also agree with Daniel Dennett about certain morals stemming from Darwinian evolution.
I did not say morality is not influenced by culture, just that I do believe there is a fundamental morality and social code across humanity.
You bring up the point of who is the arbiter that says “abortion isn’t murder…” etc. And I guess that would be the people wouldn’t it? (assuming a democratic society)
There are issues that are very much “hot topic” issues in civilized society such as abortion, assisted suicide, various drug legalities etc.
These issues have people on both sides of the debate, and especially in western society.
But there are some certain subjects that I believe transcend borders such as genocide, slavery, child abuse, murder that most humanity agrees upon. (and is not as a close, unclear debate as with abortion, stem cell research, bull fighting etc..)
Ratio, do you feel it would be inappropriate as a foreigner to speak up
against racism in another country? How about Genocide?
Surely there must be something worth being critical of regarding another culture? Do you NEVER pass judgement upon another cultures beliefs? How about religions? Are all cultures and religions the same?
I mention religion because I am from Somalia. I now live in Japan, but my family (including my Japanese 10 year old daughter) live in Astoria Queens.
In my home country misogyny and child abuse is prevalent. It is one of the reasons I left as a young man. Honor killings are a common thing there as well. One of the things I would often hear that would make me cringe is that this would never change because it was a cultural difference.
Sorry to ramble, and appreciate your comments.
Towards the end of your last comment #33 I feel we actually are in agreement with eachother.
You then go on to say
“”I suppose, as this may be considered deviant social behavior. But what happens when it becomes the norm, as it seems to be trending? Do we accept it, as society has largely accepted homosexuality, or do we continue to stigmatize it. I don’t have an answer, and frankly it’s pretty disturbing to think about.”"
What happens? Do we accept it? I would say No. We Expose it.
To be honest I DO believe the majority of Japanese are disgusted by the fact that 9 year olds in gymnastic videos being sold next to pornography DVDs, but I think its a matter of exposing it to the people.
You mention homosexuality, but I feel that is a moot point.
I argue that the child is being abused because He/She is too young to make articulate decisions about being used as a sex object. There is an innocent child involved in these cases. In this respect I do not think its comparable.
Again, thank you for your opinions, and debate. I apologize in advance if my english is confusing or misleading.
James B.
October 1, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Just ran into this as well. Cannot vouch for the reporter but found it interesting that it stated the US is the biggest consumer of child porn just in front of Japan.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/10/japan
October 1, 2008 at 9:05 pm
“We need Aceface to come and drop a huge bomb on this thread.”
I can’t……I’ve been working 17 hours a day for the past two weeks.
But two things.
The issue has nothing to do with moral nor culture.
It’s just that Japan is lacking enough female lawmakers in the diet to push for the regulation of this kind.Plus I think Irie Saaya is more of an exception than the norm,for the other 14-years-old-in-the-bikinis won’t appear in Shukanshis.
October 2, 2008 at 1:23 am
i think aceface wins.
October 2, 2008 at 10:30 am
If you haven’t seen the epoch-making “Paedogeddon” on youtube by Chris Morris, do, as it relates to this topic.
What’s wrong with a 14-year old girl on the front of playboy ? If she is physically mature enough then why all the fuss ?
What exactly is the “cut-off” point ?
with the social position of women in Japan becoming more and more advanced,
men feel threatened and this manifests itself in greater interest in younger and less threatening women.
Also agree with Aceface about lack of female lawmakers.
In many countries though this would generate a lot of outrage and / or firebombing
nothing wrong with intergenerational sex by the way
October 2, 2008 at 11:03 am
Aceface always wins.
October 2, 2008 at 2:07 pm
no dis to aceface, but that was more the snap of bubble wrap rather than a bomb..
i thought we were bitching about judging other peoples cultures, the fact about females in the diet may be true but kinda off the point no?
Also its pretty sad if the only reason this slimy thing happens is because Japanese women are the only ones who can take care of it in the diet.. and.. wouldnt that seem related to the Japanese culture? so, it IS about culture…
feel you on the working 17 hour days though mate, take it easy!
James Barry- I agree with you on most of your points, and still feel nobody here has answered many of your questions (nor will they)
BUT- dont you think you are overly sensitive because you have a daughter around the same age?
“nothing wrong with intergenerational sex by the way”
damn that sounds creeeeepy…
Peace!
October 2, 2008 at 3:23 pm
First, at the Ayase Yoshinoya there are single women — ghetto girls in sweatpants, sure, but single women nonetheless.
This round of “the Saaya Irie debate” has been helpful due to the appearance of the usual pitfalls:
- Sidelining the argument into age of consent issues or “is she old enough” territory
- Moralizing against (or hideously for) “intergenerational sex”
- Ad hominem attacks on people’s sexuality
- Simplistic comparisons with the US
- Cultural relativism that is not helpful for people who care about this issue as concerned members of society
- Arguing that doctored, glossy images of women who have mostly undergone cosmetic surgery are somehow “biologically” What Men Want
We need to get past this and agree on a common set of assumptions so we may move forward. Allow me to engage to pitfall #3 in an attempt to avoid other such pitfalls in the future:
It’s disgusting to see the inevitable delusionals come in here and make some “follow who you are” argument or some other insanely self-obsessed rambling. Much like the impulse to victimize children in the first place, the arguments you make when you come in here and hijack the discussion unconscionably ignore the welfare of the children involved in favor of pure self-interest. You prove nothing but your own willingness to spin yourself in circles to try and justify your warped thinking.
That Irie is the exception doesn’t make her elevation to cover girl status any less tragic and pathetic. The most shocking thing is that it is completely normal. How did it come to this? That’s the important question for people who can accept how fundamentally troubled the situation is.
I recently read (I think on J-Cast) that Shukanshi have been subjected to a crackdown by Tokyo metropolitan authorities recently. The authorities are worried that “hair nudes” are not being properly tucked away in sealed, perforated centerfolds. As a result, the shukanshi expressed concerns that their sales numbers will surely fall. The appearance of a 14 year old in a shukanshi (IIRC 14yos are usually limited to bikini shots in “youth” manga) may be a somewhat desperate attempt to reel people in. If nothing else, it is important to recall that some of the peculiarities of these magazines, such as the very existence of the “hair nude,” come from the cat-and-mouse game played between publishers and regulators.
“It’s just that Japan is lacking enough female lawmakers in the diet to push for the regulation of this kind.”
Forgive me for assuming, but isn’t this argument basically a macro version of “all he needs is a good woman to straighten him out”? I am not all that up on Japanese politics, but for this sort of argument to make sense the women have to be in a position to actually champion their gender’s cause (what could a Yuko Obuchi or a Seiko Noda possibly do) and they have to care (a resigned attitude of tolerance doesn’t sound like political will to me). I am low on facts in this argument, but it bears expanding.
October 2, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Let me also say that there have been a lot of thoughtful arguments as well, including the new and welcome commenter from Somalia (welcome by my standards, though I can only speak for myself).
October 2, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Apologies if it’s been posted here before, but this Cyzo interview with the cameraman who discovered Saaya and several other jailbait idols might add some more context to this discussion. Not to mention 12-year-olds in thongs.
http://www.cyzo.com/2008/02/post_311.html
October 2, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Ameba has part 2 of the interview here:
http://news.ameba.jp/cyzo/2008/02/10943.html
October 2, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Interesting to see these guys whine about the “AV producers” who rushed into the U-17 market and ruined it with their dirty ideas.
Also again, ever time we talk about Saaya Irie she is at least getting closer and closer to legal. I think it’s clear that wherever you place “the line,” elementary school girls are on the wrong side of it.
October 2, 2008 at 4:36 pm
If I may speak for him, James was basically asking a series of rhetorical questions aimed at telling all those who mount relativist defenses to give it a rest. The mere fact that Japan has a different culture from others is no reason to back off at all.
I think it comes down to perspective. In any context, there will be people offering criticism that is neither well-founded nor welcome. Christian missionaries landing in Tokyo and complaining of hedonism would rightly be ignored. Same goes for whiny expats who have had too much to drink and conclude that Japan is The Borg. On a slightly different end of the scale, there are Japanese commentators who consider the US government’s annual trade “recommendations” (deregulate, deregulate, deregulate) to be unwelcome intrusions into internal affairs.
From the Western perspective, the question of how far distasteful foreign customs should be tolerated is at least as old as the Roman empire. They imported paganism wherever they went but they also gave a sort of begrudging tolerance of (some) other faiths such as Judaism.
None of us is a member of the Roman elite, but we do have to think about where we stand. Personally, as a resident of Japan I feel I have a stake in how the Japan Project turns out and I feel a sort of responsibility to make sense of it all. I am a single human being making arguments in English (so far), so I feel like I can take some strong positions on a variety of issues (not merely the big ones like genocide and child abuse) without being accused of being a foreign know-nothing who throws his weight around like a modern day Commodore Perry. My arguments therefore can be judged on the merits. I cannot speak for anyone else, but the mere fact that we are arguing on a small blog comment section I think should leave the field open in terms of what we can discuss.
October 2, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Nonetheless, try and name one other country where pictures of “minors” such as these would not cause massive outrage….
There isn’t one.
It is hard to rehabilitate paedophiles
when there are magazines and books available
with pictures of 14 year old and younger girls wearing skimpy underwear.
If these aren’t jazz mags for paedophiles, what are they ?
Adults engage in sexual relations with children for various reasons, the main ones being that they can maintain control of the circumstances without their sexuality being threatened. Also as with violence there is a vicious cycle and many wish to rob others of their innocence as they experienced it.
This digression aside, sexual abuse leads a trail of misery in its wake and leads to feelings of self-hatred, depression and often suicide.
“Japan” can be seen to be actively condoning and abetting sexual abuse of children.
So if Mr. David Marx really does feel so strongly about the subject, as he is very right to,
perhaps he could create an impact-making article or book called “幼児虐待パラダイス ジャパン”
October 2, 2008 at 6:28 pm
on
second
thoughts,
wanking off to children may actually be a legitimate fantasy here in Japan.
There are plenty of pornos with horses and
dogs and school girls shitting in beds,
whats wrong with an 8 year old in lingerie ?
Fine as long as you don’T act on it.
Perhaps it is indeed a release valve,
putting the idea out in real form and taking it away from the recesses of the mind, de-tabooing it
and saying “yep we’ve all thought about it”.
someone mentioned the Romans, who made kids fellate them and drink their love-piss.
it didn’t get much worse than the Romans,
except maybe the Clintons, although at least they
only liked Adult porn.
October 2, 2008 at 10:44 pm
“i thought we were bitching about judging other peoples cultures, the fact about females in the diet may be true but kinda off the point no?”
Yeah,but this “fourteen years old in thong bikini”debate has been around for quite sometime
and I don’t have much else to say.
http://www.pliink.com/mt/marxy/archives/2007/01/your-little-sis.html
http://www.pliink.com/mt/marxy/archives/2007/02/little-grownups.html
October 3, 2008 at 12:57 pm
“someone mentioned the Romans, who made kids fellate them and drink their love-piss.”
So someone actually took Suetonius at face value?
The comments here about how we should contextualize and express our dislike of the pictures are by far the best ones.
October 3, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Deep thought: I can picture some future Dark Ages in which the Suetonius of his time unearths the WaiWai archives and creates his own sensationalist history of 2000s Japan. (For those who have watched Aqua Teen Hunger Force, the robot ghost of Xmas future comes to mind)
But seriously, imagine the level of depravity it takes to cite dubious examples like THAT in an attempt to justify oneself. How completely out of the blue and inappropriate.
October 3, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Just imagine if only manga survived and someone wrote a history of Japan based on it….
“How completely out of the blue and inappropriate.”
Indeed. Chote also demonstrates why some of us often lurch too far in a reactionary direction with our rhetoric.
On another note, this thread, and the links that Aceface provided that speak to a whole history before my time, just go to show that this is a HARD blog to just jump in on. There is a whole epic background of jousting here that informs everything that the regulars write to one another.
October 3, 2008 at 3:03 pm
If you ever wonder why I don’t write as much as I did back in the days, it’s because I’ve already written about a lot of these topics.
October 3, 2008 at 3:27 pm
“Chote” if I may even deign to give him the respect of referring to him by his last name, is beyond reactionary. There may be hope if he’s only 16 or so and can one day snap out of it.
October 3, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Really deep thought.
I believe that intergenerational sex is appropriate within a loving relationship.
October 4, 2008 at 12:18 am
\”Adamu\” has made some very intelligent comments, including
\”I think it comes down to perspective\” and
\”The mere fact that Japan has a different culture from others is no reason to back off at all\”. Real food for thought.
When you do make it over to Japan ( one assumes from your scripture that you are a remote viewer), you will encounter daily stories about sexual misdemeanors towards women and children. For parents living here, the playpen of kiddie porn mags on the shelves of shops is very disturbing and its mention on blogs is very worthy.
October 4, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Chote and O`Brien seem to be suggesting that Japan is somehow unique in fostering violence (both sexual and conventional) against children or that a connection can be drawn between the Irie pics and a climate of abuse. This is a “red herring” in the debate.
Japan sees aprox. 100 murders of children under 13 each year, the United States, about 800. The United States rate of violence against children in this age group is about 2.5 times that of Japan and 2 times that of countries like France and Canada. Surprisingly, few of the murders in the United States are gun related (which drives up the overall homocide rate), and unsurprisingly, many are connected with sex crimes.
It is possible to talk about the morality/appropriateness of the Weekly Playboy pictures (which I think should be done away with) without making Japan out to be a comparatively foul environment for children.
October 5, 2008 at 8:06 am
Several commenters here (David Marx in particular) state that this thing has been increasing a lot in the last few years. Does anyone know what the trend looks like on a longer timescale? Certainly before the 1999 child pornography law there were magazines with completely nude 11 year olds, not just binkini shots. (And in a longer perspective, I think Genji’s wife was kind of young too…).
Might it be that what we are seeing is not so much a jump upwards, as a dip starting at 1999 which is reversing itself as the publishing industry discovers that the law is not very strictly enforced. (I.e. that the standard for “lewd and suggestive”, in the interpretation of law enforcement, does not preclude bikinis).
October 5, 2008 at 9:16 am
@M-Boner
“… Japan is somehow unique in fostering violence (both sexual and conventional) against children or that a connection can be drawn between the Irie pics and a climate of abuse. This is a “red herring” in the debate”.
You are right that Japan is not the only country to have a problem with child sexual abuse. As in any country though the scale of the problem is unknown, as many people do not report abuse or domestic violence
for fear of recriminations, this being a well-documented phenomenon.
What do you think ? I’d venture actually that child abuse is rife in Japan. The newspapers in Japan feature stories almost on a daily basis that include teachers taking pictures up girl’s skirts, policeman arrested for possessing indecent images, to name a couple of recent examples.
(I did not mention murders, but misdemeanors, for the record.)
All of this conjecture and cultural relativism aside, and as a parent in Japan I actually agree with the original poster that there is something
plainly wrong about a 14 year old on the cover of playboy. Yet those of you who think it is perfectly acceptable well I defend your right to this opinion fully.
October 5, 2008 at 11:08 am
M-Bone, not M-Boner. I understand the confusion.
“As in any country though the scale of the problem is unknown, as many people do not report abuse or domestic violence
for fear of recriminations, this being a well-documented phenomenon.”
Yes, I agree that Japan has a serious problem with violence against children and that many cases are unreported (as is true elsewhere). That is one reason, however, why I chose to present evidence related to the MURDER of children, which typically ends up being reported. If that is used as the standard for comparison, it would seem that Japan is actually comparatively safe for children when lined up against other populous developed democracies (UK, France, Canada one and a half times as many murders as Japan, USA two and a half times as many, shockingly it seems as though when worked out on a by population basis, New Zealand has around 20 times the number of child murders). I think that any discussion of the points that you raised should acknowledge this as context. Crimes like taking upskirt pictures are very difficult to compare across different legal systems because they are defined in different ways, the murder of children, however, is an area where easy comparisons are possible.
“The newspapers in Japan feature stories almost on a daily basis”
But when some qualitative evidence is actually raised, it seems that Japan is actually far safer statistically. The Japanese press goes crazy on issues of violence against children, I think that this is a positive as it raises awareness, etc. More press coverage does not, however, mean that violence takes place more than in similar countries, just that more attention is paid. There are also countries like New Zealand where the press pay more attention to the problem than Japan.
In any case, if you read my posts, I am not defending the images (I think that I used the word “dirtbags” to describe their consumers) but wanted to problematize some of the assertions that they speak to the mindset of average Japanese males. I`m not sure that they do, but am interested in Marxy`s additional context provided in the comments.
October 8, 2008 at 12:55 am
Dear Marxy,
If you’d like I can ask the female 中１・２・３ and 高１・２・３ at my school [Nagoya] how they feel about U-15/Junior idols.
Concrete examples: Do I really need to do this? Here you go:
諏訪野 しおり – 週刊プレイボーイ（84年10月9日号）[DOB 1971]
Oh what, Weekly Playboy had a 13 year old cover model in 1984? Why, that was 24 years ago!
More?
武見あゆみ – 少女（1982年）[DOB 1973]
倉橋のぞみ – 倉橋のぞみ13歳（1986年）[DOB 1975]
山崎 亜美 -「少女・亜美」（1993年、辰巳出版）[DOB: 1980]
These sort of things aren’t hard to find, nor as stated previously, are they new at all. Haven’t you posted extensively about おニャン子クラブ in the past? There were members born in 1969 (making them 16 at the time).
I’m really just surprised that someone like you, with your fancy college degree and “inside knowledge” about Japan would be shocked at something like this. さすが、アメリカ人のこだわりね〜☆
October 8, 2008 at 7:34 am
Thanks for the examples. See, your cultural war anger made you go and do me some helpful research.
I’m really just surprised that someone like you, with your fancy college degree and “inside knowledge” about Japan would be shocked at something like this.
Watch out, there. You just destroyed all rationale for anyone ever going to college.
October 22, 2008 at 3:34 pm
William Sparrow may read this thread…
October 24, 2008 at 12:31 am
Ain’t the first time she was on cover of Weekly Playboy:http://tinyurl.com/5nhsnd
from 2005. She was 12 at the time. Tag line reads “The 12 year old’s Revolution”
I haven’t checked all the comments, please feel free to delete if already mentioned.
October 28, 2008 at 5:37 am
“Sexy Halloween costumes . . . for little girls?”
http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-sexy27-2008oct27,0,919843.story
“Q: There’s a recurring theme in Halloween costumes for girls this year, and it’s kind of spooky. What’s going on?
Halloween costumes for 7- and 8-year-old girls and even younger have become downright titillating, and for tweens and teens, the vast majority of those sold in stores and on the Internet are unabashedly sexually alluring. Little girls and their big sisters are being encouraged to get dressed up, in many cases, like child prostitutes. Then, they wander the night judging and being judged by their friends as to how well they meet the provocative standard and begging for candy from strangers.”
November 4, 2008 at 6:11 pm
As far as I know, the legal age in Japan is 13. Also, she is FINE AS FUCK. She may be 14, but her body is that of an 18 year old, or older. She could easily be mistaken for an adult. If she looks like an adult in all ways, is it truly wrong? I’m sure she’s aware of her appearance, if not, why model as provocatively as she does? She’s aware of her sexuality and she embraces it.